(M)UD Fight
UPDATED: Lou FCD and The Girls have the whole (m)ud-wrestle archived on JanieBelle's first post. I just want to say that I have tried several times to change my kharley471 moniker to "Kristine" but it kept changing back. (?) That's what I get for hacking their site. ;-)
And let's not forget how that UberTard, DaveScot, treated PiGuy. (Tard's reply to this physicist is in bold, and we do mean bold.) Forgetfulness is a virtue with UberTard, I guess.
---
UPDATED: Every once in a while Amused Muse senses that somebody (most likely some chauvinist creationist hack) doesn't think she's very smart, and hurls her finger cymbals into the far corner, shakes her fist, and lets out a string of adjectives that could wilt a cactus. The storm always passes. However, I hate bullshit, and this is bullshit.
---
In case anyone is interested in resolving this fight, here's the linky to the 1976 Ballard article.
Original sources, UDittoheads! Original sources. And for shit's sake, here's the original quote (pardon my typos):
Thus, the energy of investigators and particularly students is diverted into the essentially fruitless 19th century activity of bending the facts of nature to support second-rate generalities of no predictive value. Though enthusiasm for Haeckel’s (1900) recapitulation “law” died out, unfortunately the popularity of Von Baer’s “laws” of 1828 was renewed. In order to defend thelatter’s descriptive statements that general characters appear before special characters as an egg develops and that the less general and finally the specific characters trail along later, we have to deide intuitively that certain characters are of “morphological significant” and others are not. When referring to vertebrates, we have to use words like blastula and gastrula in such a way as to imply that things that are vastly different from each other are really very much the same.
….
Von Baer’s generalities only apply to second half of this, and even then there are many exceptions in the literature (De Beer 1958), limited their predictive value. Before the pharyngular stage we can only say that embryos of different species within a single taxonomic class are more alike than their parents. Only by semantic cricks and subjective selection of evidence can we claim that “gastrulas” of shark, salmon, frog, and bird are more alike than their parents.
Meanwhile, of course, more or less steering clear of the Naturphilosophie, real and fruitful investigations are being pursued on the period of morphogenetic movements and in related fields. Works too numerous to cite have been published in the last decade on the behavior of moving cells either as individuals or in sheets and in relation to their substrates…
(Pardon my f-bombs.) I mean, for fuck's sake, Wells. How stupid do you fucking think I am? Just because I didn't get to diddle a Ph.D. like it's a goddamn vibrator!
I'm pissed. I'm fucking pissed off, and this goes out especially to you, William Dembski, Honey.
Do you fucking think I chose to be an atheist? Do you? Do you think it’s easy, walking around being an atheist in America today? Huh? Do you think I woke up one morning and said, “Hey, I think I’ll horrify my family, lose my few (at the time) friends, and send myself straight to hell—what fun!” Do you ever ask yourself (assuming you ever doubt yourself) why anyone becomes an atheist?
It's becasue of people like you. It's because you reflect the emptiness that you say we believe in. You people lie, and lie, and lie, and then you toss around this language thinking that I, a stupid librarian-in-training, can’t find a scholarly article online and read the damn thing? And then you have the gall to point at me and yell, “Unbeliever!” when people like you are primarily responsible for showing me that there’s nothing to all of this crap?
Why should I even be afraid if there was a God? I would just accuse you before him. If you don’t like sharing the world with atheists, well go look in the mirror, Mr. William Dembski and friends. What do you believe in? Lies! How does that make you better than everyone else? How can anyone like Sal Cordova pull a fast one like this without knowing that he’s doing it?
And let's not forget how that UberTard, DaveScot, treated PiGuy. (Tard's reply to this physicist is in bold, and we do mean bold.) Forgetfulness is a virtue with UberTard, I guess.
---
UPDATED: Every once in a while Amused Muse senses that somebody (most likely some chauvinist creationist hack) doesn't think she's very smart, and hurls her finger cymbals into the far corner, shakes her fist, and lets out a string of adjectives that could wilt a cactus. The storm always passes. However, I hate bullshit, and this is bullshit.
---
In case anyone is interested in resolving this fight, here's the linky to the 1976 Ballard article.
Original sources, UDittoheads! Original sources. And for shit's sake, here's the original quote (pardon my typos):
Thus, the energy of investigators and particularly students is diverted into the essentially fruitless 19th century activity of bending the facts of nature to support second-rate generalities of no predictive value. Though enthusiasm for Haeckel’s (1900) recapitulation “law” died out, unfortunately the popularity of Von Baer’s “laws” of 1828 was renewed. In order to defend thelatter’s descriptive statements that general characters appear before special characters as an egg develops and that the less general and finally the specific characters trail along later, we have to deide intuitively that certain characters are of “morphological significant” and others are not. When referring to vertebrates, we have to use words like blastula and gastrula in such a way as to imply that things that are vastly different from each other are really very much the same.
….
Von Baer’s generalities only apply to second half of this, and even then there are many exceptions in the literature (De Beer 1958), limited their predictive value. Before the pharyngular stage we can only say that embryos of different species within a single taxonomic class are more alike than their parents. Only by semantic cricks and subjective selection of evidence can we claim that “gastrulas” of shark, salmon, frog, and bird are more alike than their parents.
Meanwhile, of course, more or less steering clear of the Naturphilosophie, real and fruitful investigations are being pursued on the period of morphogenetic movements and in related fields. Works too numerous to cite have been published in the last decade on the behavior of moving cells either as individuals or in sheets and in relation to their substrates…
(Pardon my f-bombs.) I mean, for fuck's sake, Wells. How stupid do you fucking think I am? Just because I didn't get to diddle a Ph.D. like it's a goddamn vibrator!
I'm pissed. I'm fucking pissed off, and this goes out especially to you, William Dembski, Honey.
Do you fucking think I chose to be an atheist? Do you? Do you think it’s easy, walking around being an atheist in America today? Huh? Do you think I woke up one morning and said, “Hey, I think I’ll horrify my family, lose my few (at the time) friends, and send myself straight to hell—what fun!” Do you ever ask yourself (assuming you ever doubt yourself) why anyone becomes an atheist?
It's becasue of people like you. It's because you reflect the emptiness that you say we believe in. You people lie, and lie, and lie, and then you toss around this language thinking that I, a stupid librarian-in-training, can’t find a scholarly article online and read the damn thing? And then you have the gall to point at me and yell, “Unbeliever!” when people like you are primarily responsible for showing me that there’s nothing to all of this crap?
Why should I even be afraid if there was a God? I would just accuse you before him. If you don’t like sharing the world with atheists, well go look in the mirror, Mr. William Dembski and friends. What do you believe in? Lies! How does that make you better than everyone else? How can anyone like Sal Cordova pull a fast one like this without knowing that he’s doing it?
posted by Kristine | Friday, November 03, 2006
44 Comments:
Ah, I love the smell of burning fundy in the morning.
Torch 'em sister! They aren't just mistaken or deluded, they're knowingly lying. And they're doing it to make a buck while causing distress for everyone in the world. That makes them scum.
On a side note,
"Just because I didn't get to diddle a Ph.D. like it's a goddamn vibrator!"
YOU CAN DO THAT? I gotta get me one o them.
I gotta get me one o them.
A Ph.D., or a vibrator? Or a Ph.D. in vibrators? ;-)
But seriously, I’ve had it. Dembski & Co. can go fuck themselves. This is just shameless!
Ever since I heard about ID it’s been a steep biological/semantic learning curve I’ll admit, because it’s difficult as hell for a layperson to sort out which websites have authority on the subject and which websites are utter crap, but damn! When quote-mining, at least keep out-of-context quotes in chronological order! And take them from the same paragraph, preferably the same sentence!
Huzzah!
My word what an excellent defense of your position. Fantastic imagery.
I have been meaning to drop by since reading your comment on breakerslion.
I am but a simple agnostic, reviled at times by those on both sides. I have quite a few full throttle atheists on my blogroll who I love to read. Naturally I have a great deal of admiration for your disdain for the fundys which is well deserved in many instances.
I have been prowling about looking for reactions to the latest Republican Moral Values Hypocrasy fiasco. Thank You Ted Haggard &
Merry Christmas Democrats
Do you think that this story has the legs to stick around until Tuesday?
We Canukistanis are watching to see if the tide is finally turning down there.
"A Ph.D., or a vibrator? Or a Ph.D. in vibrators?"
Yes: got a couple: GREAT IDEA! Then I'll automatically get a vibrator in a Ph.D., too!
"We Canukistanis are watching to see if the tide is finally turning down there."
Holy crap, we hope so. We potential victims of the new Dark Ages are tired of being made fun of by Canukistanis.
:)
Okay, as a member of the "unwashed masses" as my former crush Dembski likes to say, I'm going to reveal my ignorance.
"Canukistanis"?
I have the sudden urge to get back to school and earn a Ph.D. - immediately And Fundy Fat Rules! (especially the crispy parts around the edges)
I only wish that I'd caught onto this earlier in the day. They actually expected results today at the office. What's with that?
They actually expected results today at the office. What's with that?
Yeah, I know, I was multitasking like hell today.
Do you need a secretary? ;-)
I am so fed up with these jokers, I can't tell ya. This is obvious deception, and I feel like printing out that article and stapling it into every copy of PIGDID that I see at the bookstore.
I was initially taken in (at first) last year by Well's ID babble (although I didn't think it was about God, but intentionality) and found the blackguard out pretty quickly. I guess because of my background and despite my education I have always had a little fear that evolution was not true, but today, something clicked. I have always harbored a little religious fear, but now it's gone. Zip. Nada. There's nothing anymore.
Dawkins didn't do that. Dembski and Friends did that. How in hell can they live with themselves? If I were to tell Dembski this, would he give a rip? Probably not. Maybe none of them at UD believe it, or believe in anything.
""Canukistanis"?"
As Canuk is slang for Canadian, I assume that Canukistani is a humorous spin-off, and would be a funny self deprecating term. Add that to the "down there" reference, and I'm fairly confident that h. escapeons is from north of the border.
"as a member of the "unwashed masses" "
Y'know, Kate can help with that.
Something I highly recommend.
It's free.
Well, that certainly sounds heavenly. But tonight I'm afraid I'm going to have to settle for the ole cat-makes-bread-on-my-back standby!
"as my former crush Dembski likes to say,"
You can't possibly be serious. Thats the kind of thing even Mark Foley would disavow.
Kristine: Those in the creationist (dark) side of this "debate", (I will explain the quotaion marks at the end) are the ones who do not hesitate in twisting research and information for their own goal which is to prove the existence of a creator.
First of all, they have started plain wrong since a creator, by definition, has to be above the laws of nature in order to pursue its creation. If it uses the laws of nature, the one who creater the creator would have to be the one above the laws of nature.
Secondly, we all, in the bright side of the "debate" ,know that Science is blind. The scientific method does not care about the results, it is just a means to obtain them. And those results many times are unexpected.
Finally, they believe that we are able to choose everything, like living without a god. Most of us, atheists are raised in a religion. For years we have to struggle against the reality, when we finally accept the reality, the psychological ghosts of demons and hell keep hovering for a while, until they vanish.
The quotations are there because there is no debate. We accept or reject theories. They believe or not believe whatever they want
(De-lurking. With essay length and wild suppositions. Apologies in advance...)
Yes, they really are disgusting. Yes, they know they're lying.
Or, I suspect, they mostly do.
And therein lies, I suspect, something that might be a bit of consolation, if it weren't so bloody pathetic.
My suspicion: the internal life of most (if not all) of the ID schmucks has got to be one big, ugly mess of painful contradictions--uglier and messier even than is average for yer basic follower of any religion, and that's really saying something.
Sure. Thing is, like I said, my bet is: they only half know they're lying. Because they've been telling those lies a long, long time, they *can* probably convince themselves, for short stretches, with various tortured contortions, that they're proud servants of the Truth with that capital 'T'... that even if their argument looks twisted and bizarre and disjointed, even if, hey, any sane person can see in an instant they're trying to convince the world a man who wrote one thing really meant another, they can still tell themselves, briefly, no, this must be true, I've got it right... Ballard really *did* say what I want him to be saying... Those durn critics are just being *so* picky, requiring me *not* to stitch him together however I damned well please...
They *must* believe it, so they do...
Just a suspicion. But it's suggested by an old observation. And that is: some of the best cons really *are* suckers for their own lines... And those of other cons. Others have opined it probably has something to do with cognitive dissonance. It's hard to keep saying anything without starting to believe it. And this, I guess, makes some sense.
Whatever it is that makes it so, however, in this case, they're believing such absurdities, when they do that. And that has to get awfully messy for them, within and without their cosy little cheering sections, when someone shows up to throw cold water on their dear delusions.
That, I suspect, is much of why it gets so weird, when they run headlong into it, like they just have. That's why you get these bizarre shifting arguments and overheated rhetoric. That's much of why they do incredibly stupid things, like arguing hey, I'd like to see you critique *this* version of our lie, as opposed to the one you just did, as though, somehow, that's going to make it one tiny bit better for them.
That's why they can *never* back down, even when they're digging themselves in deeper and deeper and deeper and playing more and more laughable rhetorical games (and leaving a lovely permanent record on disk of their doing so), and gradually losing each other's respect, yeah, even their own self-respect--or whatever they had left of that. Unlike in an argument with someone generally honest with themselves who's merely honestly (or mostly honestly) made an error (and can thus, eventually, usually admit it, with the minor and ephemeral cost to pride this engenders), so *much* of their psyche has solidified around maintaining that veneer of certainty, that absolute grasp of Absolute Truth, that they blindly fear *anything* that feels *anything* like retreating--fearing collapse of what they know very well, ultimately, on some level, is a house of cards.
So it's not just that they're trying to distract you, when they start playing these bizarre shell games with semantics, and using debate tactics that would make even folk running for public office blush. They're also trying to distract themselves.
And it's pretty painful, I'd bet, for them, despite that projected attitude of smug certainty. I'd bet that not far under the loud bluster of the folks making the most noise (over there at PZ's place, right now, and pretty much always in such situations) there's that uneasy sense they always have, and they're suppressing it energetically, desperately, protesting so very much, methinks, precisely to drive away that terrifying realization that would lurk just around the corner, otherwise...
That realization that they've been lying, to themselves and to everyone else, for so much of their lives now. That they've been doing it so endlessly that it *is* their life now, and it's ugly and empty and as damnably complicated as lying inevitably always is.
Like I said, it's sort of a consolation. Or it would be, if it weren't so pathetic.
So sure, be mad. I'm mad, too. I'm disgusted, sick of the waste of time this has become. All the suckers, believing all that bullshit, it really is a tragedy, a lost opportunity, minds and lives wasted, on both sides, sadly, distracted from the pursuit of beautiful truths, deflected to the miserable duty of maintaining a lie, and the seemingly endless and frequently tedious duty of refuting it. I've said before I wished it were practical to declare it a crime to spread bullshit like ID. Fines for that level of public mischief seem only fair... The abuse of human gullibility that ID represents just *should* involve criminal penalties, it seems to me.
But if it's any small consolation: these people almost certainly have dreadfully complicated, conflicted internal lives. And I very strongly suspect that somewhere, deep within, especially while they're working their weaselly little butts off to shore up once again their increasingly elaborate web of deceit, they *must* feel a self-hatred that makes the disgust the rest of us feel for them seem almost mild.
You can't possibly be serious.
Ssshhhh. Don't blow my secret plot, dogscratcher! ;-) I'm pretty sure his truly lurks here.
"Dembski" is code for: "I have a hopeless crush on Dawkins." Frankly I don't think Mark Foley would disavow anything, but I do have corrupt-a-prude fantasies. I wouldn't mind tormenting the Dembster, making him listen to some surrealist poetry and putting various other naughty ideas into his head. Except now I think he's just a money/power whore, a verbal smoothie, not some innocent little prude. Who knows, his private life could very well rival Ted Haggards in "Art"istry.
Doctor Marco and I exchanged some instant messages and he showed much insight into these characters at UD.
AJ your name is familiar to me. Thank you for commenting and don't apologize for the length. What you've said is very helpful, too.
I wonder if these guys don't admire themselves in a way for telling themselves such elaborate lies and being so "complicated." I'm at heart a rather simple person--not that I'm a simpleton, but I basically present myself as I am and believe in saying what I mean and expressing what I feel (as everyone has seen!).
My Dad fretted about his sins until the day he died and it just pisses me off. Yes, I think that this is related to cognitive dissonance and self-hatred, and I guess I resent the UD folks for hating themselves too, if they do. We should carry ourselves as proudly as any other animal on the planet. Is this where consciousness ends, in fear and self-abnegation?
It's ugly and empty. You nailed it. And that is what I truly find meaningless. It horrifies me, it really does.
All the suckers, believing all that bullshit, it really is a tragedy, a lost opportunity, minds and lives wasted, on both sides, sadly, distracted from the pursuit of beautiful truths, deflected to the miserable duty of maintaining a lie, and the seemingly endless and frequently tedious duty of refuting it.
That's almost poetic. Thank you. And count me in as one of the refuters, for I've just been told by one of the professors at my college that despite not having a science undergrad degree I'd still make a good science librarian!
Anyway, storm's over, and take care, everyone.
Is this where consciousness ends, in fear and self-abnegation?
Thankfully, not always. As evidenced by by all those who do stand up to call these twits on their deceptions.
And you're welcome.
My word, that was beautiful. Would it be rude or impertinent of me to tell you that, based solely on this one post, I think I may be in love with you?
Dave-
That's very sweet. No, it's not rude or impetinent, but it's also nothing that I haven't gotten before, either here or at Pharyngula.
My man knows that I get compliments. But despite how well I'm preserved, I'm almost twice your age! But thank you.
You are, of course, welcome. If--as is evident--a steamy, sarcasm-laden romance is not in our future, I suppose I'll just have to pick up the shattered pieces of my broken heart and try to move on, living day-by-day (yes, that was very much Cartman-inspired). I will have to start reading your blog regularly, though. :)
Dave
Now it would be REALLY REALLY funny if that had something to do with UD getting delisted from Google.
Talk about a dozen eggs on the face.
jujuquisp - could you possibly elaborate on these rumours?
Oh yes! Do tell.
Maybe I'll have to make that creationist jail bait film after all! One for Hovie, and one for (oh, why does the thought of him in handcuffs do something to me even now?) Demb Ass.
Reveng is mind, sayeth BD girl.
Canukistanis *chuckle*
Haven't these guys heard of accountants? I mean, sheesh - they've got people that you can pay to help you with this sort of stuff. Oh, that's right - it's not their money. For that matter, Billy Boy's got several degrees in math. You'd think that he'd have ;some idea of what he'd owes.
Hmmmm... Maybe I could use some help. You'd be perfect - research skills... you're know about and are interested in science... Can you start on Monday?
I just hope that I can get that image of Dumbski handcuffed out of my head before bedtime!
Can you start on Monday?
Wish I could!
I just hope that I can get that image of Dumbski handcuffed out of my head before bedtime!
I wish I could get that image of Dembski handcuffed to my bed out of my head! ;-) J/K, John.
I bounce back to my old irreverent self pretty quickly.
Well, jujuquisp apparently bailed, taking his allegation with him...and I haven't been able to corroborate it. Dang!
I'll just have to slap the handcuffs on Dembski myself.
jujuquisp (a.k.a. Jesse Van Bommel, M.D.)
Just thought you might like to know that uncommondescent.com has be reindexed by google. We're not sure why were deindexed or for that matter why we were reindexed. We suspect foul play for the former and for the latter a recent complaint by a google stockholder to investor relations at google.
Kristine
Keep up the good work here. With potty mouthed freaks like you and lesbians trapped in a male body like LouFCD speaking against ID it makes our work a lot easier.
MWAH! DaveScot visited my site! JanieBelle! Everyone! [Jumps around with joy]
Dave, you know that this is all just a cry for help. I'm a homosexual man trapped in a female body. (Gawd I love looking at myself in the mirror, but I wish he didn't drag me clothes-shopping.)
It's for sure that I need counseling. Send Dembski over here, willya? I promise to control the swearing. In fact, we don't even half to talk.
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Ha! DaveScot and Kristine's-not-evil-twin, all in one day!
You must be doing something right, Kristine!
Kisses!
Oh, and Daveyboy,
You can suspect foul play all you like. Truth is, in all probability Google delisted UD because you guys got busted doing something hinky to try and up your own stats.
The pro-science/anti-magic crowd is pretty happy with the comedy you guys provide, and we wouldn't want to endanger our best source for showing what a crock ID is.
Just so y'know.
Dave Scot - how exactly do "potty mouthed freaks" and "lesbians trapped in a male body" help IDers do science? I was, of course, assuming that the "work" of ID is science. That's the case, right? So, how exactly are Kristine and Lou contributing to this scientific effort?
Yeah, how many lesbians are trapped in your allegedly male body, DafTard?
JanieLouBelle please try to keep up.
Google reindexed us a few days ago.
That of course entitles me to say
http://tinyurl.com/yy8s46
Awww Davey,
I'm hurt that you forgot to include me! We had such good comraderie going. Chemistry. Friendship, even. And I had been so impressed with your mental prowess. Like when you posted that bit about the picture of all those Marines.
Truly inspiring.
I do have to admit I'm puzzled by that whole Google business. Maybe it has something to do with depravity being the strongest force in the universe.
Just ask Ted Haggard.
(Uncommon comment on UD: "Now I wonder if Haggard will apologize to Dawkins.")
I'm not holding my breath.
Holy crap how did I miss all of this?
damn Ken Miller..
Yeah, it sure was a party, Chimpy! But don't worry, as we close in on their hidden bunker there'll be plenty of hilarious hijinx from the UDoodlers to come.
"My Dad fretted about his sins until the day he died and it just pisses me off. Yes, I think that this is related to cognitive dissonance and self-hatred"
Yo! "They, them, whore, take their children away, pissed off, blah, blah, blah." You need something to talk about to your relatives besides TV? You need someone to support you who reads books? You need someone to stop forcing you to talk about commercials? (That must be your major defender you are taking for granted.) Did you ever ask anyone how they felt (outside your smug circle) or do you just talk about yourself while looking innocent? How about laying some of this crap on them at the family homestead, baby? You are so sweet at the family home. What is going on? Yeah, our "parents wanted at least one child to go to college." Well, excuuuuuse me! (Dates me doesn't it?) And the bitterness! Believing in God is more than fear and swallowing pride. I won't get into that, but I am "pissed off" that you drag our dead father's honor into your group scatological monologue fest. You are all talking to each other -- who needs a higher Power when "I" is the most overused word here? Leave Dad out of it. He was an honorable man who acted on his beliefs without trashing people who disagreed with him. You drag him down into this crap? I cannot believe Honeybunch condones this stuff. He too is a gentle man, and Dad respected his beliefs. You are running scared, my dear.
drag our dead father's honor into your group scatological monologue fest
Whoa! Where did you come from? This post is months old. I'm pissed off at UD in case you can't tell. Does it matter that I caught Wells in a lie? Does it matter that it's the same lies that I caught other people using in church (along with the false college degrees and such)?
Who are you? Aside from being "Isis" that is? I am pissed off that my Dad asked my Mom if a spongebath was a "sin." Did you read my comments about being grateful that I had a good father, unlike some girls I grew up with?
I'm "so sweet on the homefront?" Is this someone I'm related to? Come out, come out, whoever you are.
You are running scared, my dear.
Being that I use my real name I most certainly am not.
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As everyone can probably see, I'm not the only one who occasionally has a temper tantrum.
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