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Amused Muse

Inspiring dissent and debate and the love of dissonance

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Location: Surreality, Have Fun Will Travel, Past Midnight before a Workday

Master's Degree holder, telecommuting from the hot tub, proud Darwinian Dawkobot, and pirate librarian belly-dancer bohemian secret agent scribe on a mission to rescue bloggers from the wholesome clutches of the pious backstabbing girl fridays of the world.

Thursday, July 05, 2007

No Right To Be An Atheist

In the Christian Soviet Union, formerly known as the United States of America, your school can get involved in your having loaned a friend, upon his request, a copy of Dawkins The God Delusion. The friend's father has the right to threaten you, and the principal of your school, who let the trashy Gideons hand out Bibles in the parking lot in violation of the separation of church and state, gets to keep your book and "sleep on" the decision whether or not to punish you.

For loaning a book.

When you're eighteen years old.

Because you don't believe in something that doesn't exist. And why is this controversial?

Apparently, the First Amendment doesn’t mean shit if the majority doesn’t agree with your free speech. Can forced deprogramming for atheists and re-education camps be far behind in our shiny new theocracy?

Shimmies to Pharyngula, and to Reed Braden, and to deprogramming survivor Jim Dew.

UPDATE: The book was eventually returned.

SECOND UPDATE: Well, Legion didn't take the bait regarding my crack about reeducation camps. Hey, Legion! I mentioned your favorite subject! Where are you, you coward? You owe me a post (plus an apology, Honey).

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Blogger Doug said...

I wonder what the statute of limitations is on a crime like book-lending. I remember loaning a kid my copy of Dragons of Eden when I was in high school. If I fess up, will they feel obligated to revoke my diploma?

July 05, 2007 2:40 PM  
Blogger Kristine said...

If this country wants to be true to what it truly values, it should pull the diplomas of everyone who isn't a cheerleader or a jock. ;-)

If only I had had someone to loan my books to! Only in high school did I encounter anyone (mostly guys) who read Carl Sagan and Stephen Jay Gould. I have to hand it to this kid for coming out at age eighteen. I tried to do that at twenty - well, I won't go there. Thank Al Gore for the internet so that I could find other people like me! ;-)

Someday this zero-tolerance country is going to regret finding new and exciting ways to punish honor roll students, just as it will regret attacking academics and scientists.

July 05, 2007 4:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I guess there are different routes to becoming an atheist. I was sixteen when I realized I lacked believe. I was a teenage lay member of a methodist church. I kept accepting Jesus into my heart but I never felt any different. Despite the huge guilt complex I have, I came to the conclusion that I was sincere but that Jesus did not exist. At that point, I quit going to church.

But it would have been nice to have "The God Delusion" to read. But I did find some Robert Ingersoll.


July 06, 2007 1:56 AM  
Blogger Kristine said...

Well, for me it happened on two fronts: first came the realization that God just wanted unthinking obedience, then the realization that the supernatural was a just human projection that doesn’t exist – and makes people passive and conformist, and thus unhappy.

I was nine, and learning about Abraham’s sacrifice of Isaac, and I kept thinking, “God secretly wants Abraham to disobey him! Abraham is finally going to say, “God, I can’t sacrifice my son, it’s wrong,” and God will say, “That’s right Abraham! It’s wrong even if I command it! Good for you!” When, of course that’s not what happened. I was absolutely shocked – shocked and outraged and offended – by the real ending. And I thought, “This is all just a crock!”

I’m rather amazed at my moral depth and maturity at that age. It’s too bad that I could not express this to anyone that I trusted. That’s a gift, dammit. But I guess people don’t see it that way.

July 06, 2007 9:41 AM  
Anonymous AJ Milne said...


Your neighbourhood Christian Brother-and-Sisterhood Collective has concerns you may be agitating for atheism. Please to report to local reeducation centre to discuss this at greater length.


Boris Christos
Chair, We Are All Happy Christian Theocracy Fambly Now Party (WAAHCTFNP), Local 10032nd


... seriously, the scary part is, I barely blinked, reading this.

No. Really? Crazy fundy pa takes a month to give the book back? High school in the sticks spends a week or a few working on excuses to punish him? In the US? Same country that gave us the David Paszkiewicz incident? Say it ain't so.

But you're right. Even if it does fit in a little too well as part of the growing mosaic, It sure as hell won't do.

July 06, 2007 10:01 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

The Abraham & Isaac story gave me fits as a child too! I looked at my fundy parents with those innocent little eyes (through those coke bottle thick nerdy little glasses) and the realization struck me that mommy and daddy, if they really thought that was what Jesus wanted, would tie me down and get out the cutlery. Not a pleasant thought for a kid. What kind of people was I living with?

Plus I always felt sorry for the ram at the end. What kind of a crappy deity wants you to treat animals like that? Not a happy story at all on so many levels. And definitely NSFC (not suitable for children).

July 06, 2007 10:25 AM  
Blogger Kristine said...

I barely blinked either, AJ. When honor students can get expelled for having a butter knife in the car (due to a recent move) or disciplined for carrying aspirin (our glorious nation is waging a WAR ON DRUGS AFTER ALL!), it’s no big surprise that something like this happens. I was smart to keep quiet for as long as I did. Sometimes today I wonder if I haven’t made a mistake, considering the fact that the police and the FBI refused for years to investigate the disappearance of Madalyn Murray O’Hair (but that’s another post).

Oh, I didn’t for one minute think that my parents would do the same as Abraham, Doug. Only moral zeroes would do such a thing. But that’s the point. Everyone makes nice noises about these hideous, backward, pathological stories – when we all know that they’re sick, sick, sick! But it’s not nice to say it. Well, I gave up on being “nice” (i.e., emotionally stunted) a long time ago. I recommend it for curing the urge to gossip, by the way. (Biggest scandal in the church that nobody talks about – vicious gossip by women. Me with my fear of/inability to relate to church ladies was a big-ass victim of it. Even if I believed in God you couldn’t pay me to go to church now.)

July 06, 2007 11:12 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

July 06, 2007 12:17 PM  
Blogger Doug said...


It sounds like you were fortunate to have saner parents. Here's how it went in my house:

"What did you learn in Sunday school today?"

"God told Abraham to kill Isaac and Abraham was actually going to do it. You guys wouldn't kill me if God told you to, would you?"

"Abraham was a good man because he obeyed God."

"But you wouldn't, would you?"

"You have to obey God."

"But not if he said to do something horrible, right?"

"You have to obey God no matter what."

"But kill your own kid? You wouldn't kill me, would you? Just because God said to?"

*crickets and icy stares*

(thinking to myself, "uh-oh, not gonna sleep well tonight")."

July 06, 2007 12:19 PM  
Blogger Kristine said...

I’m sorry that you went through that, Doug. But in defense of your parents (they must love you, after all!), maybe they were just mentally thrashing like Robby the Robot – just been given a direct order to kill the captain, against all programming. Maybe they didn’t answer because they didn’t like the answer, which perhaps they realized was, in the words of Randolph Churchill (Winston’s son): “God, isn’t God a shit!” (I can tell you how jealous I am whenever I encounter anyone – and I do, more often than you’d think – who was raised without religion!)

And we have arrived back at the subject of The God Delusion. :-) Richard Dawkins is a father himself, with one daughter. He vents considerable bile against that Lot’s breathtakingly cruel “Rape my daughters instead of my angel guests” speech. I was never even taught that in Sunday school – no one talks about that one. I read that on my own.

I could never tell the difference between God and the devil, frankly.

July 06, 2007 2:16 PM  
Anonymous AJ Milne said...

...Sometimes today I wonder if I haven’t made a mistake, considering the fact that the police and the FBI refused for years to investigate the disappearance of Madalyn Murray O’Hair...

I lived in the US two years, left in February of 2001, pretty much right after Bush II's inauguration. It wasn't really for that reason... We wanted our daughter raised a little closer to extended family, is all. But seriously, it did feel at the time a bit like fleeing to relative safety. I travel, however, fairly regularly back to the US, now (Boston and area), and even doing that, I dunno... tell ya honestly, I wouldn't say quite so much that your nation palpably scares me, but I'm always a little happier to come home, now, than I used to be.

I could never tell the difference between God and the devil, frankly.

Oh, that one's easy. As Rushdie pointed out: the devil has the cooler tunes.

July 06, 2007 2:24 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

God is the one you would never, ever want to invite to a party. The Devil is the one who arrives fashionably but not excessively late, brings decent beer, chats pleasantly with the guests, and doesn't overstay his welcome. God spends the whole party whining that you don't have snacks that conform to his dietary restrictions and kills the conversation by accusing people of things.

Somebody should do one of those "I'm a mac, and I'm a pc" ads with "Hi, I'm Satan, and I'm God."

Satan: What's wrong, God?
God: Well, everybody thinks I'm kind of a dick.
Satan: Well, you can get a little harsh. Why don't you try not being so bossy? And, honestly, what's your problem with sex?
God: Can't help it. Just the way I was raised. Mom was a virgin.

We did the whole "rape my daughters" story in Sunday school but at an early enough age that we didn't really grasp what that meant.

July 06, 2007 2:49 PM  
Blogger Kristine said...

As Rushdie pointed out: the devil has the cooler tunes.

You mean like these? ;-)

We did the whole "rape my daughters" story in Sunday school but at an early enough age that we didn't really grasp what that meant.

So did they also get into a that unsavory "Let's get our dad drunk and screw him" orgy afterward? Geez, why not. Look at what Ken Ham thinks is good for kids (scroll down to the skinned calf in "Corruption Valley.") They should all tell little kids the original ending to The Three Little Pigs while they're at it, too! Nightmares are fun! Sheesh!

P.S. Everything the Bible says about the ancient Egyptians is a complete lie.

July 06, 2007 3:13 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I think they may have glossed over Lot's daughters slipping him a roofie. I had completely forgotten that at least until you mentioned it.

"P.S. Everything the Bible says about the ancient Egyptians is a complete lie."

It is funny you should mention that because I was just thinking about it the other day. I don't expect historical accuracy from the bible, but I wondered what the basis of the exodus story might be or if there even is one. Was it totally made up? Was it a fictionalized and glamorized version of something remotely historical? What exactly was going on in Egypt and the middle east back when the Exodus is supposed to have taken place? Do we even know it is supposed to have taken place or is it too vague to place it? Just one of those random thoughts that popped into my head.

July 06, 2007 3:33 PM  
Blogger Kristine said...

There was a series of lectures that I had to transcribe at work. Very interesting! Don't look too closely at the story of Abraham supposedly wandering into Egypt. He got camels from somewhere, during a time in Egyptian history when they had not been domesticated yet.

The evidence for the Exodus is scant if it even exists. At best the Israelites may have walked through a marsh that the Egyptians got their carts stuck in. However, ancient Egypt was not the slave society that Rome was.

These stories are a bunch of nursery-rhymes told by an illiterate group of prudes and written down hundreds of years later. The Hebrews were definitely slaves in Babylon, for example, but after they won their freedom, most did not leave. They didn't pine for Judea, as we were taught. Judea was a backwater. Most stayed in Babylon and became merchants.

Just like the former Soviet Jews who preferred coming to the U.S. or Europe rather than going to Israel. It was an embarrassment to Israel, but it should not have surprised anyone who knew history. Most people emigrating to Israel today are extremist converts or newly reverted Orthodox believers. They have no ancient claim.

July 06, 2007 4:01 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

The camels issue never really worried me. I just assumed it was a bad translation decision, like that phase Latin translators went through where they would translate the various grains in Roman literature as "corn."

But I always suspected the Exodus was a case of story creep, like you see in the reported number of dead in some ancient battles. So, I thought there may have been a small, local dispute that over time morphed into "we defeated the Egyptians!"

But I'm not a historian and I've never found much written about the evidence of the Exodus aside from some suspect stuff by xian apologists.

July 06, 2007 4:24 PM  
Blogger Kristine said...

There's not much there, no. Your hypothesis about story creep sounds reasonable.

I tried to find more information and came up with a modern exodus.

July 06, 2007 5:06 PM  
Anonymous Alexander said...

Everything the theists have learned about "re-education" camps they learned from atheists who put millions in them.

Who ya kiddin, baby doll.

Damn! You are one attractive broad. Belly dancing really does it for me.

I have even had a dream about you, but I am an old guy so nothing happpened.

Later, baby doll.

July 07, 2007 1:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Alexander, please, tell us more about how tyrants like Mao, Stalin and Hitler imprisoned and murdered millions because they were atheists. None of us are familiar enough with that. Goes to show how all of we atheist are evil little creatures.

Could not have been because of the same reasons too many other tyrants did the same, to try to keep their power and attack those they see as enemies.

Have fun broken old doll.


July 07, 2007 4:34 PM  
Blogger Kristine said...

Just ignore the coward behind the curtain, Janine, he's a troll that we call "Legion" and I believe I banned him from this blog for wishing one of my sponor children dead.

Alexander/Orwell/Banned/Goldstein/Legion, you owe me a post. I tagged you. Now cough up. Or apologize. You owe me an apology several times over now. (And don't fucking call me a "cunt" on other people's blogs. You'll make the baby Jesus cry, and sooner or later you'll get your ass sued.)

And your theory doesn't hold water, since William Dembski states that atheists got all their idea from Christians. Maybe you should troll him instead of me.

July 07, 2007 9:19 PM  
Blogger Kristine said...

Oops, forgot my purse. Bad linky corrected. I have to supply correct links, or Legion will use his hand instead of toilet paper. Isn't that right, dear? You sure aged quickly after leaving your mother's basement.

Now write us a nice little post about 8 nice things about nice little you, or don't show up here. You're still banned for wishing an 11-year-old dead. (And this is an argument against evolution/atheism how?)

July 07, 2007 9:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I used to post at a site called Weird Crap. There was a person who posted as Emmanuel Goldstein II. He used a lot of the same type of arguments that "Legion" uses. The regulars there liked to abuse Goldy. (As far as I was concerned, Goldy deserved all of it and more.)

I asked Goldy why he named himself after the fictional scapegoat of 1984. He answered because all of us there trembled in fear of him.

I then pointed out that if the man behind the Goldy persona was one tenth as obnoxious in real life as his persona was, he must be a very lonely person. Who in there right mind would want to deal with this person. I never got an answer. Just lots of invectives.

I have to admit, if this the same person, I just wanted to give him a kick to the head greeting.

But I am willing to start ignoring this person.


July 08, 2007 2:12 AM  
Anonymous Sven said...

Well, it looks like someone really got Janine and Kristine worked up by pointing out that Lenin, Trotsky, and their stooges killed millions of believers BECAUSE of their dialectical materialist hatred of all religion.

Millions of these people were peasants with no resources and wee no threat to the state. The atheists hated them because they would not give up their beliefs

The truth hurts, doesn't it?

And its still going on! In more recent times, the Chinese utilized atheism on the Tibetans as a means of destroying their cultural identity.

Why do you people pretend like you don't know this?

July 08, 2007 6:21 AM  
Blogger Kristine said...

Oh, I have a long history with "Goldstein," Janine.

All right, "Sven." You may or may not be Legion - congratulations on changing you IPs, must be hard work not just logging on in the Missour library anymore - but because you finally asked a question, without calling me a whore or wishing my sponsor children or relatives dead, I will answer.

I called this country the "Christian Soviet Union," did I not? Does that sound like someone who denies what Lenin and especially what Stalin did? (You keep saying Trotsky. Trotsky was the guy who fled Stalin and was killed in Mexico. He was mainly a wonk, not the leader of millions. I think you mean Stalin.)

Did you read at my earlier posts about how I realized that the prime factors in controlling a populace was harnassing their shame and guilt, and that atheists must never, ever, take advantage of this deadly elixir?

I'm sick of shame and guilt and sin. I'm sick of this "typical, mainstream American" idea being foisted on us by cable news shows. Whatever happened to the idea that there is no such thing as a typical American or an ordinary person? People go to church and weep for their sins, and I think, Holy shit, what little sins did they commit? It's probably just something natural, something that they have been taught to shun with horror and fear. My problems with Christians is that they are too nice, and too hard on themselves. They seem bound and determined to become as boring as possible, whereas I think their sins are the most interesting thing about them. Artists make active use of their "sins."

Okay? Does that sound like Stalin or Lenin to you? Can't you see that I, as an atheist, want to get at the bottom of what makes people act like a mob in the first place? It's the mob that is the evil here. The mob oppresses, and the mob is oppressed. In your religion, it was the mob that let Barabas go and called for Jesus' crucifixion, wasn't it? So what if we teach people to become themselves, and quit losing themselves in the mob?

"Sven," or Goldstein, or Alexander, or Ulynov, or "Raised by Atheists," or whoever you are - you keep talking about something terrible having been done to you by atheists (who you imply were your parents). I wish you would come out of your closet, drop the abusiveness and cruelty, and just say what it you've been trying to say to me for over a year now. If you've been hurt, then I am hurt, too. I don't empathize only with atheists. Not every atheist is my friend, and as far as I'm concerned I have no enemies, although your targeting of me has alarmed me very much. If you are proud of that, then be proud. But you just seem really lonely and scared. I think you're getting tired of your act.

I'm a really nice and gentle person if you would only let me really talk to you instead of having to protect myself from your attacks. But you have to decide for yourself when you get tired of being so fake.

July 08, 2007 11:49 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kristine, I am now convinced that this is the same person I dealt with before. It is the same arguments. Also the same statements about how we are just so worked up by "the truth". It is pointless to even try to have a conversation with this person. He is a parrot, capable of only repeating the same lines, no deviation.

Never mind the fact that all of us can point out the we deplore what those tyrants did and what they stood for. In his simple mindedness, you and I are the moral equivalent of Stalin. Frankly, I have a better time talking to the wall in front of me.

I have tried talking to this persona. It was pointless. Kristine, you should stick to your position. Stop engaging with this persona. It is pointless. There are much better ways to spend your time.

Take the path that Stephan Jay Gould would have taken and just move on.


July 08, 2007 1:03 PM  
Blogger Kristine said...

I know it's the same pointless arguments, Janine. I know all too well this person and his behavior. But I can't seem to stop him from showing up, even though he knows he's banned. So I will make the gesture that I made to John A Davison - who really slapped me in the face with it in a particularly nasty manner - for a real discussion. He's not likely to take me up on it, I know.

I know that I am opening myself for even more of this person's abuse and stupid antics. I have a tough hide and I still make the gesture anyway. At least I am on record, then, as having made an attempt at a serious discussion. I know it will probably not happen. But I make the attempt, because I'm stronger than he is, and to make an example of myself. Out of a thousand demogogues there may be one who will stop and listen.

I do it because I believe in our human capacity for transformation. It doesn't come from the supernatural, it comes from us. As we speak, the church, oppressed so long in the Soviet Union, is underminding Russian society with its backward thinking. The Russian people suffer - they suffered under the Czars, under the Bolsheviks, under the Soviets, and after Glasnost. If Sven wants to talk about what I feel about human suffering, how it makes me crazy and how I think it is time that humans pull together to stop it, then I extend the invitation. Ball's in your court, Sven.

July 08, 2007 1:18 PM  
Anonymous Sven said...

Christine, or whoever, it was not just Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin.

(Although Trotsky, as leader of the Red Army, was personally responsible for ordering the deaths of hundreds of thousands, and in his Testament he swears that he has been a committed atheist. (

What are we to think when we hear Dawkins telling us we are delusional or child abusers?

After all, what did they do with delusional people when they had the power? Locked em up or put em on drugs.

What are we to think when Dennet tell us our beliefs should be ZOOS?

And what are we to think when Sam Harris says, "Some propositions are so dangerous that it may be ethical to kill people for believing them". (p 52-53 of TEOF)

Oh, he is talking about Muslims there, as he talks about the pre emptive death penalty for BELIEFS, not just ACTIONS.

But which atheists are going to decide which beliefs...perhaps the child abuse of teaching religion to children?...deserve the death penalty.

I heard this spiel growing up. It makes me afraid.

How am I to know what these people would do to me if they had the power? All I can do is judge on a historical basis what committed atheists did when they had the power.

What are we to think?

July 08, 2007 2:05 PM  
Blogger Kristine said...

"The power"? What power?

No one person or group should have "the power." That's the point.

The future that I envision is one that has never existed, and not an extension of any past utopianist society. I don't believe in homogenious, utopian dictatorships. Lenin, Stalin and Trotsky can bite me (if they were alive) for all I care - bunch of sexist jerks (especially Trotsky, man, he was privileged to meet Frida Kahlo and treated her like some brainless baba). I was never an admirer of or an apologist for the Soviet Union.

But I do think that in the future religion will become more and more personal for people, and less like the megachurches and the arena revivals, where charismatic leaders preach guilt and fear, and rake in the dough like rock stars. I do envision a future without celebrities - because people realize that they are the star on their own stage.

I pointed out to someone - I don't know if it was you - at the Pioneer Press discussion page the points in Dawkins' lecture in which he clarifies that it is the teaching of hell that is child abuse. When asked a direct question from the audience as to whether religious training itself was abuse, he said no.

He also stated emphatically, and I agree, that telling a child "You are an atheist" is child abuse. No one knows better than me what it feels like to be told you are something that you're not.


I cannot answer for Sam Harris, as I have not read his book. But I am me. I'm not Dawkins; I'm not Harris; and I most certainly am not Madalyn Murray O'Hair. That control freak scared the hell out of me. She is the reason I stayed away from any formal atheistic group. Nevertheless, when she disappeared, neither the police nor the FBI would investigate until her fundamentalist Christian son started his own investigation. So, I'm afraid, too.

Okay, so we're a little afraid of each other. But really, you don't have anything to fear from me. Certainly not from Dawkins, who's default setting is that of a nice person, which is what most people are.

I can't speak for Dennet - but are you sure that Harris wasn't thinking of suicide bombers when he wrote that sentence you mention so often? Because yes, I would agree that if someone has the intent to be a suicide bomber - out of any kind of belief - you have the right to kill that person first. There's where I stand.

You know, before you showed up I was going to do a post entitled "No Right to Be a Christian" regarding a woman in another country who was just told by some sharia court that she had no right to convert to Christianity. You should see how the Richard Dawkins forum lit up with atheists, including me, condemning this action.

I do not believe that people are blank slates and that religion is solely the result of socialization. Therefore, I do not see and will not tolerate the forcible conversion of anyone to atheism (bah! lots of luck) or putting people in "zoos" or anything else. I have made this statement emphatically here and elsewhere, and I don't know how to make this any more clear.

Anyway, I can't remember who at Uncommon Descent said that atheism existed only because religion did - it may have been Dembski, it may have been O'Leary - as if that made atheism invalid in some way. My response was, well, whoopie-ding-dong - religion and atheism share common descent! Horrors. Maybe that's what happens when all creatures on earth share biological common descent. Yamma-ramma-ding-dong, when we're all cousins, why put anyone in zoos?

Whenever I hear this "atheists are just going to lock us up" nonsence I remember the "women are all going to take over" anti-feminist hysteria. Well, look what happened when women "took over." They became Ann Coulter, Michele Malkin, and Michelle Bachmann. They became Republicans. Yeah, Sven, I'm gonna take your kids away! That's why I never had kids at all, so I could raise all of yours, and put you into a cage so that I'll have to feed you. Right. Sounds like a lot of work, and I prefer to sleep late, so why don't we give you the key to your cage and you all get your own breakfast, okay?

I mean, come on.

July 08, 2007 3:15 PM  
Blogger Kristine said...

Now, let's talk about you and your views on women.

Let's talk about this comment.

Or this one. I see that you've watched "Mouth Movie" this afternoon, so you know perfectly well that all my pics are of me. Your comments about my appearance are unwarranted and you know it. At any rate I've repeatedly told you that I'm in a relationship so quit acting like an ass.

If I were ugly you wouldn't be here.

And how about your inexcusable behavior on this thread?

You keep talking about your religious beliefs. I keep wondering what the fuck your religion means to you when you can be such a mean, nasty, heartless, and complete unappealing bully.

Put you in a cage? You're already in one of your own making. That's why you visit me. That's what attracts people like you to me - I am vibrantly alive and they suck off my energy like vampires. I can't tell you how many people out there are living vicariously through me and think I have some personal responsibility to liberate them from their suburban doldrums.

So don't come whining to me about oppression when you're obviously here to do the same. You sound like my ex-boyfriend, the fundy who stalked me, all the time talking about how "controlling" I was. (If I'm so controlling, what was he following me around for, calling me, etc.?)

Bye now.

July 08, 2007 4:51 PM  
Blogger Kristine said...

By the way, here's the thread about the woman in Malaysia who was denied her Christian conversion.

Read very carefully what I say about recognizing the difference between religions as they are practiced, and quit selling atheists short.

Oh, you probably just ran away and made your same comments on another blog, didn't you?

July 08, 2007 5:56 PM  
Blogger Kristine said...

*Winks at Janine*

Well. It sure got quiet around here. Did Legion fall off a cliff? Hahahahaha!

July 08, 2007 8:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If he fell off a cliff, it must have been The Cliff Of Madness. Ah, where is Fezz when you need him?


July 08, 2007 8:40 PM  
Blogger Kristine said...

Biblical allusion. (Illusion?) After the "Legion" of demons are sent from the possessed man into the pigs by Jesus, the pigs fall off a cliff and drown.

Thus getting rid of...the pigs.

I never liked that story, either.

But now we can tease the hell out of our Legion with it.

July 08, 2007 9:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, I happen to like "The Princess Bride" much more than the bible. Not a herd of harmless pigs slaughtered because of a tiff between immortals in the novel nor movie.

Alas, I am sure he will be back. He cannot help himself. It seems he has nothing better to do with himself.

Oh, yeah, he brings up Trotsky. Not all of his victims were Russian Orthodox. Consider his suppressing the anarchist sailors in Konstadt. Most anarchist tend to also be atheists. Go figure.


July 08, 2007 11:25 PM  
Blogger Kristine said...

All I really know about Trotsky is that he stayed with Frida Kahlo and Diego Rivera while Andre Breton was also there with his wife. The women were shooed away from any political discussions, and then Trotsky argued with Breton over Breton's hobby of collecting religious figures, despite his being an atheist as well. Trotsky sounds like a joyless Savonarola, just like Legion. The two deserve each other.

July 08, 2007 11:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

cpjlbI did not know he stayed with them while he was in exile in Mexico. I cannot say I surprised by how he treated Frida.

Trotsky was a ruthless bastard. Just that he ended being a rival of an even more ruthless bastard.

As for his theoretical work, he is responsible for the idea of telescoping. In classic Marxist thought, the revolution could not take place until the proletariat was developed and realized that they were oppressed. Russia was not at that stage in 1917. Trotsky's solution was that only a small leadership needed to be aware and lead the masses. Therefore telescoping through the stages of development the Marx felt was needed. Thus, the vanguard was born.

On a different note, one of my favorite songs by The Stranglers,
"No More Heros" start with these lines;

Whatever happened to Leon Trotsky?
He got an ice pick
That made his ears burn

My idea of a feel good song.


Yes, I know "Heros" is spelt wrong.

July 09, 2007 1:06 AM  
Anonymous Kansas Troll Moll said...

I heard there was a shit storm over here.

Looks pretty flacid to me.

I do get a kick out of atheists defending scum like Trotsky and gang, and pretending that those people were not REAL atheists!

You know, "no true Scotsman" and all that.

But what is really hilarious is the pretense that athesists really don't mean it when they call Christians delusional child abusers who belong in Zoos.

We are simply "misintrepreting" what they really mean, because they are really nice guys.

Sure, sure. Whatever.

July 09, 2007 8:57 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kristine, here is proof that our dear little boy has no connection to reality. At what point did either of us call Trotsky a nice guy. You called him a misogynist and I called him a bastard.

I hope our dear little boy has a good care giver. It is obvious he cannot get by on his wits alone.

Oh, and have you ever heard of a flaccid shit storm before.

Tag, you are in the ring now.


July 09, 2007 9:07 AM  
Blogger Kristine said...

Hey, Kansas Flaccid Moll, you asshole. Learn to read. Trotsky was an atheist and a jerk. You are (supposedly) a Christian and a jerk.

Answer my questions or get lost.

Is it "Christian" to call me a "cunt" at BigDumbChimp's blog?

Is it "Christian" to call me ugly and fat and old? Yeah. I'm ugly and fat and old like evolution is a lie.

You "heard there was a shitstorm"? From whom? The voices in your head?

Talk to yourself, but do it elsewhere. Trotsky talked mostly to himself, too. What a couple you make. Too bad you can't check into a hotel room together.

Yeah, Janine, lovesick puppy shows up here because atheists "scare" him. Or because we "tremble with fear" from him. Well, let me know when you get your story straight, Legion.

July 09, 2007 9:17 AM  
Blogger Kristine said...

Whoo-hooo! Rev. Chimpy deleted the "cunt" comment!

Signs of the coming atheistic purge, eh, Legion? I guess you're doomed.

Jesus, man, how many times are you going to log onto my blog? My blog stats look like Sybil visited with each personality taking a turn at the keyboard.

July 09, 2007 9:39 AM  
Anonymous Kansas Troll Moll said...


I made no such remark about you.

Such a remark is reprehensible, although I suppose calling Christians delusional child abusers who belong in Zoos is not, in your way of thinking.

You know, like Dawkins, Dennet and Harris?

I mean they are such good guys and all.

July 09, 2007 12:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear little troll, there is no need to place the likes of you in a cage, you are already in one of your own construction. It hurts me to do this but I am going to paraphrase some Snashing Pumpkins for you.

Despite all of your rage
You're just a rat in a cage

Also, you have already shown that you are either a liar or you cannot read the written word. Why would anyone believe you when you deny calling Kristine a cunt. Or do you think all of we atheists are conspiring against you. Perhap Rev Chimpy could lie to back up our hostess.

(News flash! No one need to conspire against the likes of you. You can and do fuck yourself over repeatedly.)


July 09, 2007 3:15 PM  
Blogger Kristine said...

I made no such remark about you.


In fact you even picked on a fellow Christian - Frank - and got that comment deleted, too.

We all know who you are and what you've done, Legion. That was out of bounds, and so was your behavior at AtBC, and you know it.

You want to talk about Dawkins? At least he knows how to treat a woman like a lady. I know that for a fact. Not like you and DaveScot, who also got so jealous of a photo of me and Dawkins that he decided to make derogatory comments about my appearance, just as you did.

You know what? You're so abusive that I'm sure your children should be taken away before you kill them. A maniac like you does belong in a zoo. Now get lost.

July 09, 2007 5:31 PM  
Anonymous Kansas Troll Moll said...


The "anonymous" potty mouth is upset.

Atheists are hilarious. They can call people any vicious thing they want, including child abusers, but if someone throws an explicative or two at them they are outraged!!!

Here's the key thing to remember in talking to atheists: what applies to THEM does not apply to YOU.

Hey, did you know ATHEIST spells EATSHIT


July 09, 2007 5:40 PM  
Blogger Kristine said...

The "anonymous" potty mouth is upset.

Yeah, he sure is! Really riled up is a-ninnymous potty mouth this time. Oh, wait. That's you.

I can't wait to go to Washington DC this September and see Richard Dawkins again. Unlike the Galapagos, it will be a dressy affair. I'll be sure and take lots of photos. I wonder what you look like? Probably old and fat and ugly. You know, you might even be a woman. You certainly don't act like a man.

Now tonight, some advice: when you fuck yourself, try not to think of me, okay?

And lose your religion at another blog.

July 09, 2007 6:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey, did you know ATHEIST spells EATSHIT

No, Dear Troll. Eat shit is an anagram of atheist. Hey, did you know the if you reverse the letters in god, you get dog. While being a cat person myself, dogs done much more to add comfort and friendship to my life then god did.

Also, Dear Troll, first you deny calling people names and then you say so what if you did because because you were called names. Cannot stay to a story. Nothing new there.

I find myself wonder what you keep doing this. Oh well. I am more than happy to heap abuse upon you, you just make it so easy. And I am sure Kristine will do also. You just need to understand one thing here; neither of us have any fear of what ever words you may say. We do not respond out of fear. While I can not say this for Kristine, we have never met, this is like the cat that is batting about a fly. It is practice against a being that cannot fight back. Am I being a bully? The answer is no, you come here knowing the treatment you will get.


July 09, 2007 10:29 PM  
Blogger Kristine said...

Legion loves it, Janine. He shows up here every so often just to be blog-slapped by me. I held back for a long time because I thought he actually was some underage kid but now I don't think so at all.

I would be very interested in ferreting out Legion's real identity. That would be fun.

July 09, 2007 11:01 PM  
Anonymous Kansas Troll Moll said...

Atheists really are a scream.

In her original post Kritine baits "Legion" and the whole gang of trolls as cowards for not responding to what she admits was posted as bait...then she whines and whines when they show up.

Come on, you know you love us!

(And yep, I am a woman, a whole lot younger than you gal.)

July 10, 2007 8:17 AM  
Blogger Kristine said...

Look, hermaphodite child, I'll make it easy for you:

1. [Write something honest about yourself]
2. [Write something honest about yourself]
3. [Write something honest about yourself]

You do know how to count to eight, right?

a whole lot younger than you gal

Give it time. I still get carded. We'll see if you get mistaken for 20 at age 40.

July 10, 2007 9:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Um, Dear Troll. I was the one who complained, mainly pointing out that I dealt with this same persona on a different site. It was the same arguments and insults as before. Then I saw that Kristine was having fun at the troll's expense so I decided to join in. It is all right here.

Funny how everything can be right in front of you but STILL you get everything wrong.

As for it being love, I highly doubt it. It is laughter. And I am not laughing with you.

As for bragging about being younger, BFD. Age is something you cannot control. Or is this a case of the younger you are, the better you are. Dear baby.


July 10, 2007 9:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kristine, I am shocked, SHOCKED, that Dear Troll cannot understand that you are able to tell where messages are coming from.

Well, it is possible that there are multiple users from that computer. But lying and misunderstanding are a part of Dear Troll's persona. Why kill what little charm Dear Troll has by demanding something truthful. Might be something his little brain cannot handle.

Now I am imagining Dear Troll's head blowing up, a la Scanners.


July 10, 2007 9:36 AM  
Blogger Kristine said...

It's one IP account - multiple IPs - well, anyway. I'm sorry that I mistook Frank for Legion, though.

It's all good. What I love about Paris is, they aren't borderline pedophiles over there, obsessed with young girls. In Paris, a woman isn’t even a woman until she’s 40. After all, why eat berries before they’re ripe? ;-)

Besides, our dear little troll told a LIE. Now s/he going to hell with the rest of us. Oh, no, that means that somebody is going to demand cupcakes at our poker party. *Groan*

July 10, 2007 10:02 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Atheists really are a scream."

Rightly or wrongly, ideas are often evaluated in part based on the people who express them. I don't know Kristine, but from reading her blog, I would describe her as a kind, intelligent person, with a healthy sense of humor, and a strong joie de vivre. In contrast, I'm afraid, Kansas Troll Moll, that your comments make you appear dull. You do more harm for your cause, assuming you genuinely have a cause and aren't just content to provoke a reaction, than good. You really seem to have some growing to do. I wish you luck.

July 10, 2007 11:24 AM  
Blogger Kristine said...

Gee, I hope our troll(s) is/are catholic because now the Poop, I mean the Pope, has just said that all other churches are false. Wow, don't be bashful, Ratzinger, just say what's on your infallible mind.

So many infallible prophets and popes, all contradicting each other. It's a theist thing, we just don't understand!

July 10, 2007 11:35 AM  
Anonymous From a basement bunker deep in Kansas atheist territory said...

The Pope says everyone else is wrong?

So what?

Atheists say all theists are wrong.

Meanwhile...good news!

Moms social security diability was raised, plus a benefit for me if I keep 12 hours at the community college!

And Borders will let me work weekends, so I won't have to work fulltime.

Plenty of time for my, uh, research, and uh, commentaries, as mom thinks of them, and Borders gives great employ discounts.

But the way, they now have an atheism section!

And, according to the rep, its national.

Plenty of material to refute, gotta stay busy...

July 16, 2007 11:37 AM  

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